What should GNU run on (was Re: wha

[Barry Shein]

From: jeffrey at algor2.uu.net (Jeffrey Kegler)
>1)  Since this is my own money, I would like some resale value for
>when I upgrade.  Sun is going to come out with a fancy new box next
>year and then where will you be?  Someone will buy my 386 to run Lotus
>1-2-3 and this creates a strong resale market.  There are weekly price
>quotes in Computerworld for 386 boxes, whereas last year's Sun machine
>can be hard to unload at any price.  Anyone want last year's Sun box?

I don't think this is true, have you called the several used Sun
vendors for a price quote on "last year's Sun"? Make sure you're
really asking about last years and not a three year old model (like
the 3/50.) I think you'd find it very easy to unload any one or two
year old Sun with a reasonably std configuration, just like a PC.

What's the resale price of a '286? I think that's a better comparison.
I had someone come to me recently with a '286 asking advice on how to
get rid of it, it was only two years old and probably the height of
technology at the time. He had paid $10K for the system (he brought
the receipt). My estimate was that he'd be lucky to get much more than
$1500 today for it ('286, 1MB, Color EGA, 40MB disk, some other knick
knacks.)

If you're an early buyer of technology there's always a window of high
resale value. But how much will you expect for the (I'm guessing)
$7500 '386 system you bought when the '486 systems come out, the disk
and memory costs halve etc? Probably $1K, and that's probably only a
year or so away. Do you think anyone is going to want your neato-keen
80MB hard drive when everyone else is practically giving away 300MB
drives (think back to when 20MB drives were only owned by the rich.)

>2)  Service alternatives.  You can get hardware for a 386 serviced all
>over the place.  You know how much clout the owner of one machine has
>with Sun?

This remains an absolutely valid point.

One way to get around this is to buy a late-model used machine from a
reputable dealer who also offers service themselves. They exist, but
it's still definitely a concern for someone desiring the latest and
greatest. Until serious third-party dealers show up (some are in fact
appearing around the SPARCstation already, look in the latest Unix
World) this will make people hesitate, and rightfully so.

>3) Prices.  When I want to find the cost of an add-on, I check the ads
>in PC Magazine, etc.  Sun's price list is secret.  You wonder why?  (I
>hereby challenge Sun to allow its current price list to be posted to
>the net.  No unauthorized posting please.  Let's argue facts here.
>Show me I'm wrong.)  For example, I have a 60M cartridge drive.  You
>cannot back up this size metal on floppies!  The equivalent for your
>Sun will require an expansion chassis which alone costs more than the
>drive.

I think this is out of left field.

Sun has a slick, glossy price list that they hand out as door prizes.
I've never had any problem getting one (the new one also has all the
maintenance prices.) I got the current one by walking into a Sun sales
office (in Lexington, MA) and asking the receptionist who just went to
the back and came out with one.

I don't understand how the example relates to the gripe. There is a
healthy third-party market for things like cartridge tape drives for
Suns and they'd love to quote you prices if you just called them.
When was the last time you considered buying a cartridge tape drive
from IBM for your PC? Call one of the dozen or so third-party vendors
for Sun.

>The basic workstation setup is priced to look competitive with the PC
>equivalent, but move beyond it and you get the sort of stuff that
>gives monopoly pricing a bad name.

WHAT monopoly pricing??? What are you talking about? Do you need a
list of third-party vendors for Sun peripherals?

Are you perhaps looking in the wrong places? Join the Sun User's Group
(ahem) and get README, their magazine, and look thru the vendors
advertised there.  Go buy copies of The Sun Observer, Digital Review,
Unix [World, Review, etc], Sun Technology, etc and read the ads. Get a
Catalyst catalog from Sun for a few hundred more products (admittedly
mostly software in the Catalyst catalog.) Go to a Sun User's Group
conference and visit the trade show which will have almost 200
vendor's booths who will be trying desparately to sell you peripherals
equivalent to anything Sun sells and at prices which are much cheaper.
(Caveat Emptor, of course, but the same goes for flipping thru a mail
order catalog for PC clone equipment.)

>4) Futures.  Sun controls your upgrade path if you buy from them.
>They want you to buy a brand new box.  In the PC market hundreds of
>vendors are falling over each other to enable you to upgrade.

Again, I don't understand. For example, do the Helios, Clearpoint and
other upgrades to 3/50's increasing their memory by 2 or 3 times
(something which was impossible from Sun) fit the bill here? How about
all the floating point solutions for VME and other buses? How about
Sun's offer to upgrade most 3/50's to the equivalent of a 3/60 by
replacing the board (doubling performance and increasing memory
capacity)? How about all the third-party memory/disk/tape vendors?
How about the used vendors who will usually take your old system in
trade for a newer one if it has any resale value at all (I'll grant
they're not offering a whole lot for 2/120's these days, but how much
can you get for a PC/XT?)

>The workstation distribution channel is much less competitive and much
>more expensive than the PC one.  Those overheads have to be paid for
>somehow, and noone should be fooled by the fact that one specific
>configuration is a few bucks cheaper.

I can basically agree with this, tho it's not clear that you can't
walk out right now and get what you want. This is getting a little
abstract.

>If you buy them one at a time, Sun really does not want your business.
>They cannot support the sales force on onesy-twosies.  It is just a
>fact of life and not just a matter of attitude.  Better to realize that
>before you buy than after.

I believe this is a more important point in terms of after-market
items like service and has truth to it, but I've outlined some ways
around it.

I own a Sun3/60 as a personal computer with a third-party disk and
tape. I paid about the same as I would have for a Compaq or other
high-end PC that might be in the same class on the basic issues.  The
value to me is that it's got an excellent Unix base and a lot of the
things built in that others charge for (like ethernet.) But the
software is what's important. It's all a matter of what you need, I
wouldn't have bought it to just run spread-sheets, but you hardly need
a '386 for that either.

Somehow I suspect that a lot of what you wrote is just indicating that
you've missed all the marketing for third-party Sun stuff somehow and
assume that therefore it doesn't exist. Honestly, try some of the pubs
I've mentioned and see if it doesn't change your mind 180 degrees.

-- 
	-Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die, Purveyors to the Trade
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